The Most Interesting People I Know
11 - Lewis Bollard on Ending Factory Farming

11 - Lewis Bollard on Ending Factory Farming

August 10, 2019

Lewis Bollard leads the Open Philanthropy Project’s strategy for farm animal welfare. He directs roughly $30M in grants annually to nonprofits working to reduce suffering of farmed animals around the world. By virtue of his position, Lewis has deep insight into the state of the farmed animal welfare movement, which we get into in some detail.

Unfortunately, there are some audio issues with this episode- Macbook Airs are the bane of my existence. Otherwise, I think this was a great conversation. Lewis is a world-class expert on this topic, and his passion for the cause is clear.

We cover:

Open Philanthropy’s approach to ending factory farming, the scale, tractability, and neglectedness of factory farming, the transition to plant based meat alternatives, the hierarchy of suffering per calorie, whether you have to be a vegan to be an animal activist, the advocacy campaigns that Open Philanthropy is supporting, America’s role in defending factory farming worldwide, whether factory farming is efficient, whether we need to end capitalism to end factory farming, the psychological challenge of seeing the horror of factory farming in everyday life, undercover farm investigations, civil disobedience and violence in fighting for animal rights, the ethics of pursuing corporate campaigns, criticisms of Open Phil's approach to farmed animal welfare, and, of course, how you can get involved.

Show notes:


His Twitter:

His monthly newsletter 

His conversation on the 80,000 Hours Podcast

Effective Altruism Animal Welfare Fund

Other links:

Infographic showing number of animals killed on farms compared to labs and shelters

Amount of animal suffering per calorie for different foods

Meat and the H Word: Given the amount of suffering involved in the mass killing of animals, how is it not one of the greatest moral atrocities of our time?

Hedonic Treadmill

Video: Baby Pig Fresh Pork Sausage Prank

At Least 3.4 Million Farm Animals Drowned in the Aftermath of Hurricane Florence


Animal Charity Evaluators (ACE)


Animal Liberation

Eating Animals

Animal Machines

10 - Brianna Rennix on Our Brutal Immigration System

10 - Brianna Rennix on Our Brutal Immigration System

July 29, 2019

Brianna Rennix is an immigration lawyer and a Senior Editor at Current Affairs magazine. She works near the border in Dilley, Texas, helping prepare detained immigrant women for their asylum hearings. This is a job that requires you to ask people about the worst things that have ever happened to them. And if you fail, they may be deported to their death. 

Immigration has been in the news a lot recently, particularly the torturous conditions immigrants are being held in. Unfortunately, a lot of this coverage isn't properly contextualized and there's a lot of misinformation about how our immigration system actually works. I've wanted to have Brianna on for a while because, as I tell her, she writes about immigration with more analytical and moral clarity than anyone else I've come across. We touch on a lot of it here, and I really encourage you to read her work on immigration that can be found in the show notes. 

We cover:

Brianna's work as an immigration lawyer, how Clinton and Obama laid the groundwork for Trump's immigration policies, the push and pull factors driving immigration, America's role in stoking violence in Central America, the origins of MS13 and Barrio 18, Trump's efforts to destroy the asylum process, asylum claims in theory and in practice, the intensity of asking people to relive their worst experiences day in and day out, and what you can do to help.

Brianna's work:

This Week in Terrible Immigration News 7-29-19

Waiting for the Holy Infant of Atocha

The Case for Opening Our Borders

Crammed into cells and forced to drink from the toilet – this is how the US treats migrants

Things You Can Do Beyond Calling Your Congressperson

Understanding the Administration’s Monstrous Immigration Policies

What Would Human Immigration Policy Look Like?

Can We Have Humane Immigration Policy?


Majority of undocumented immigrants show up for court, data shows

A Century of U.S. Intervention Created the Immigration Crisis

US Involvement in Regime Change in Latin America

Polls: Most Voters Are Cool With Trump’s Deportation Raids, But Not His Racist Tweets

How to Create a Crisis

Observing immigration court

Never Again Action

Video of Ihlan Omar being welcomed home

‘Nobody Opened the Door’: Neighbors Rally During an ICE Raid in Houston

Video: Town Of Trump Voters Angry After Local Businessman Gets Deported

Movimiento Cosecha

9 - Spencer Greenberg on Life-Changing Questions, Effective Altruism, and Burning Man

9 - Spencer Greenberg on Life-Changing Questions, Effective Altruism, and Burning Man

July 23, 2019

Spencer Greenberg is a mathematician, social scientist, and entrepreneur. He received his PhD in applied math from NYU and is the founder of SparkWave, a social venture foundry. As we discuss, SparkWave has created a number of apps tackling problems like depression, anxiety, and finding participants for academic studies. Spencer also created the site, which offers free online tools and training programs to help users avoid bias and make better decisions. This site has a lot of fun and thought-provoking exercises. My favorites that we didn’t dig into: common misconceptions, political bias test, and leaving your mark on the world. Spencer has spoken at Effective Altruism Global and been published in the New York Times.

We cover: life changing questions you can ask yourself, intrinsic values, some hard problems for utilitarianism, Sparkwave’s apps for anxiety and depression, how to ensure social ventures don't become evil, Effective Altruism, the profound challenge of doing good in the world, the connection between our happiness and the news, gaming Facebook for your happiness, the best legal approach to prostitution, Spencer's thoughts on fiction and nonfiction, why memorizing is underrated, and the best description of Burning Man I've heard. 

When I conceived this show, Spencer was one of the first people that came to mind. As you’ll soon see, he has informed and well-developed thoughts on a huge range of topics. He’s changed my mind quite a few times, and I appreciate his approach to thinking through the hardest problems we face as a species. 

Spencer’s referenced work:

Life-Changing Questions

Intrinsic Values Test

Spencer’s presentation at Effective Altruism Global on “Value traps, and how to avoid them”

Mind Ease for anxiety

UpLift for depression

Facebook post on humor

Facebook post on 10 policies Spencer supports

Other links:

The 36 Questions That Lead to Love

The Repugnant Conclusion

Current Affairs article on Wikipedia

Is it fair to say that most social programmes don’t work?

Peter Singer’s essay Famine, Affluence and Morality

What it’s like to go to Burning Man for the first time

8 - Emily Bazelon on Prosecutors, Jeffrey Epstein, and Kamala Harris

8 - Emily Bazelon on Prosecutors, Jeffrey Epstein, and Kamala Harris

July 16, 2019

Emily Bazelon is a staff writer at the New York Times Magazine and the Truman Capote Fellow for Creative Writing and Law at Yale Law School. She is the author of Charged: the New Movement to Transform American Prosecution and End Mass Incarceration. Emily is also the co-host of Slate’s “Political Gabfest” podcast. She has appeared on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert, Fresh Air, This American Life and pretty much all the other big shows. Needless to say, I’m grateful she took the time to come on my show. 

In our discussion, we cover:

The outsized and unchecked power of prosecutors in our criminal justice system, what one thing Emily would do to change that system, whether she's a prison abolitionist, Tiffany Cabán’s prospects should she wins the Queens DA race, whether it's better to get progressive prosecutors in office or pursue state level reforms, what Jeffrey Epstein says about the rule of law, and Kamala Harris's record as a prosecutor and what it means for her candidacy.


Emily’s Twitter:

Emily’s work referenced:

Her book Charged

Kamala Harris, a ‘Top Cop’ in the Era of Black Lives Matter

The Charged podcast

Other links:

The Paradox of the Progressive Prosecutor

Solitary Confinement: a Threat to Denmark’s Credibility


Kamala Harris calls Manafort’s relatively light sentence unfair

7 - Vanessa A Bee on Social Media, #metoo, and Innovating Under Socialism

7 - Vanessa A Bee on Social Media, #metoo, and Innovating Under Socialism

July 12, 2019

Today’s guest is attorney, and writer Vanessa A Bee. Vanessa is the Social Media Editor and now Associate Editor at Current Affairs Magazine, where she runs a fiery and informative Twitter account: @curraffairs (in addition to her own: @vanessa_abee). You can also catch her on Current Affairs’s wonderful podcast.

On this episode, we cover:

The role of social media in our politics, whether writers need to be on Twitter, Vanessa's ideological and religious journey, prison reform vs abolition, #Metoo, the boring importance of antitrust law, how standard labor contracts restrict our freedoms, the revolving door between regulators and the companies they used to regulate, and why innovation may actually be better under socialism.

There are some audio issues with this episode. Some processors can’t keep up with the recording software I use. I did what I could for this episode, and am looking into workarounds for future episodes. 


Vanessa’s articles:

How Not to Talk About Uncomfortable Shoulder Rubs

Can Penitent Sexual Predators Ever Be Granted Redemption?

Court-Packing is Necessary to Save Democracy 

The Rules of Monopoly

Innovation Under Socialism

Other links:

WashPost article where Terry Cruz details his alleged sexual assault

Pete Davis’s Twitter thread on how all of Obama’s antitrust Assistant Attorney Generals went on to work for the corporations they used to regulate

6 - Sam Miller-McDonald on Fighting Climate Disaster

6 - Sam Miller-McDonald on Fighting Climate Disaster

July 3, 2019

Sam Miller McDonald is pursuing a PhD at Oxford studying the intersection of energy production and political power. He’s also an editor at The Trouble, a news site looking at climate change from a left perspective. In 2015, Sam co-founded ActivistLab, an online publication focused on improving social change. Sam is a prolific writer, with work in Current Affairs, the New Republic, the Baffler, In These Times, and elsewhere. 

I should warn you up front that this is a bummer of a conversation, but I’m glad we had it. I found Sam to be informed and honest about the challenge before us. 

We touch on:

Sam's research, the problem of climate change, whether industrial agriculture is actually efficient, what would be in Sam's Green New Deal, whether cities are as good for the environment as we may think, the challenge of resettling the predicted hundreds of millions of climate refugees, dealing with the despair that climate change uniquely inspires, Extinction Rebellion, the role of nuclear power, and how you can fight climate change most effectively.

Show notes:

Sam’s articles we discuss:

The City of Tomorrow

Collapse Despair

Beyond Fluorescent Bulbs: 4 Things Millennials Can Do To Fight Climate Change

Other stuff:

Effective Altruism forum post on whether climate change is an existential risk

Sam on the BBC discussing climate anxiety


Episode photo by Zbynek Burival on Unsplash

Tiffany Cabán’s Election Mini-analysis

Tiffany Cabán’s Election Mini-analysis

June 26, 2019

This is a special mini-episode giving a quick analysis of Tiffany Cabán’s likely election to be Queens’ next district attorney. This victory rivals the election of AOC in importance.

Some further reading on the election: 

An article I wrote for Jacobin on the significance of the race

NYT coverage of the race

The Nation: Tiffany Cabán is Running a Nationally Significant Race

The New Yorker: Tiffany Cabán’s Feminist Coalition

New York Magazine: Tiffany Cabán Wants to Reimagine Criminal Justice in Queens

The New York Times: Why Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Endorsed a Little-Known Public Defender in Queens

Jacobin interview: Tiffany Cabán Knows Who the Bad Guys Are

5 - Pete Davis on Deepening Democracy

5 - Pete Davis on Deepening Democracy

June 25, 2019

Today’s guest is Pete Davis. Pete wears many hats. I first came across his work as the host of the podcast for the Current Affairs magazine and we met at a live taping of a show in DC. But I also came across Pete through the commencement speech he gave at Harvard last year in which he implores the audience to ignore the siren song of “keeping your options open” and instead commit your life to a worthy cause. This speech’s topic and metaphor- infinitely browsing Netflix- struck a chord with our generation and a version of the speech shared by Goalcast racked up 27M views on Facebook. In no small irony, the mentions of Catholic radical Dorothy Day and unheard prisoners were left out of the success-bro Goalcast version- calls for actually committing to social justice are less popular than calls to commit to “something”. 

While at Harvard Law, Pete wrote a book called Our Bicentennial Crisis, which called for reforms to the school’s culture and policies with the goal of getting the majority of harvard law students pursuing public interest law. If you’re at all interested in how the legal profession fails to meet the needs of the overwhelming majority of the country, Our Bicentennial Crisis is an excellent summary of the problem in addition to being a source of good ideas for solutions. Pete is now one of the founders of the Democratic Alternative, a national infrastructure to develop and promote policies that deepen democracy. 

We cover Pete’s many projects and whether you can be a leftist and an entrepreneur, institutionalists and insurrectionaries, how Chapo Trap House radicalized me, escaping "the David Brooks gaze", communicating the ideas of the left in many political languages, building up expertise to get the confidence to challenge those in power, how to get more out of reading the news, the importance of making political movements welcoming, and using concrete policies to bring people into the left.

Show notes: 

Pete’s book Our Bicentennial Crisis: A Call to Action for Harvard Law School’s Public Interest Mission

Pete’s graduation speech

Article “Why is the Center for American Progress Betraying the Left?

The Democratic Alternative starter pack for public banking

4 - Emily Anthes on Clones, Cyborgs, and Sado-Masochistic Cows

4 - Emily Anthes on Clones, Cyborgs, and Sado-Masochistic Cows

June 19, 2019

Emily Anthes is a science journalist and writer based in Brooklyn. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Atlantic, Nature, Scientific American, and many other outlets. She has also appeared on far more prominent shows than this one, including NPR’s Fresh Air, PBS News Hour, and BBC Radio. Her 2013 book Frankenstein’s Cat explores the cutting edge of bioengineered animals.

We get into some pretty wild territory this episode (pun intended), covering:

A few chapters from her upcoming book The Great Indoors: what our dust says about ourselves, the ideal workplace, amphibious houses, and humane prisons (if there is such a thing).

We spend the bulk of our conversation on topics from her book Frankenstein’s Cat, including: cloning, the tension between expensive innovations in animal treatment and more cost effective ways of helping animals, whether biodiversity matters, bringing back the wooly mammoths, sado masochistic cows, animal cyborgs, the ethics of animal testing, CRISPR babies, and human animal hybrids

Show notes:

A (questionable) article claiming China has been engaging in decades of eugenics (and a criticism of that article)

Academic paper on the prevalence of Scandinavian pretrial solitary confinement

An article I wrote about the Brooklyn jail with no heat or power

The German man who asked to be eaten (warning: very gross)

3 - Malaika Jabali on the Real Reasons Hillary Lost Wisconsin

3 - Malaika Jabali on the Real Reasons Hillary Lost Wisconsin

June 11, 2019

Malaika Jabali is an attorney, activist, and writer based in New York. She is a contributing writer to Essence Magazine and has had her work published in Current Affairs, Jacobin, the Intercept and elsewhere. She’s written on many topics including police shootings, white nationalism, black radicalism, and hip hop. She has also done excellent reporting on the dramatic declines in black voter turnout in Milwaukee during the 2016 election. Malaika makes a persuasive case that these declines help explain Hillary’s loss. The real reasons for this drop are at odds with the narrative advanced by the Clinton campaign and Democratic establishment. They also chart a path forward for 2020. In addition to this reporting, we discuss: How the DNC fails to learn from its mistakes, the corrosive impact of wealth in politics and music, Bernie and race, Bonnaroo, political labels, Black Panther Fred Hampton, why Joe Biden should stick to eating ice cream, and the mysterious deaths of Ferguson protest organizers.

Note that this episode was recorded before Joe Biden declared his candidacy. Malaika wrote a Jacobin piece about Biden called: Joe Biden is Not a Blue Collar Candidate.

Malaika's articles we discuss:

Hillary Clinton is Still Deeply Confused About What Happened in Wisconsin

The Color of Economic Anxiety

The Sacrifices Of Slain Black Panther Party Leader Fred Hampton And His Family Are A Lesson In Black Love

Other articles and events referenced:

Bernie Sanders on Andrew Gillum and Stacey Abrams: Many Whites Made ‘Uncomfortable’ Voting for Black Candidates

Bernie Sanders Campaign Announces 10 New Women Hires

Bernie Eugene V Debs documentary

New York Magazine article on socialists

The 10 Worst Things Joe Biden Has Done in His Political Career

Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?

Bill Clinton's Crime Bill Destroyed Lives, and There's No Point Denying It

Joe Biden accidentally tells a man in a wheelchair to stand up

The mysterious deaths of Ferguson activists

Podbean App

Play this podcast on Podbean App